Item 159. BOARD MEETING OF 3-1-00 Megan Heberlein (eeyore) Sat, Mar 11, 2000 (00:36). 78 lines, 75 responses. Sorry that this took so long to get posted, but I've been pretty busy, and my brain was really fried the night of the meeting, so I had to pick up a couple little bits that I missed. But I'm better now. :) NOTES: Meeting was called to order at 7:10 by Eric. All Board members were in attendance, as well as Charles (arthurp), Steve (scg), Scott (scott), Mark (aruba), & Mary (mary), with Valerie (valerie) and Arlo (arlo) appearing for the grand finale. Chair Report: Eric reported that he now realized that it was his duty to have written adgendas at the meeting, and that at the next meeting he would properly perform this duty. Treasurer Report: Greg reported that we took in $675.40, and paid out $468.30 in January, with 1 new member and 6 returning members. He has found out that Card Services *had* recieved our check and application, so we have been sent the stuff to accept cards. We had not yet heard from Charge Solutions about taking cards on-line. Once we hear from them, we need to find out how we go about taking cards on-line...if the credit card numbers go through us or go onto a secure website. (at the time of the writing, this is mostly settled, but hey, I just print what went on at the meeting! :) Publicity Committee: The major question was whether Misti was still working on publicity. It seems that she said that she would now have more time to work on it, and was then promptly removed from the baff mailing list. Somebody (Eric?) was going to contact her and find out it she was still interested. Technical Comittee: We've recieved more donations of Memory. There is going to be work on a development machine, so that we can test things without having to take down Grex. We have the parts, we just need the time to put it all together. It will be useful for checking drives and for training. Charles has volunteered to become a trainee. All of our hardware is working just fine at this point. Charles is willing to donate a Pentium 66 plus the pieces for it to make a machine for e-mail or to hold the password system. There is talk of setting up a CGI webpage that could fix and sendout a new password without human intervention. Disk space is tight right now, but hopefully we'll have another disk in soon. The committee will at some point take Grex down to format 2 more disks...one for extra space on Grex, one for the developement machine. Staff Meeting: The staff reports that Arlo is cute and walks up and down hallways and spins rings. New business: As of the meeting, Steve Gibbard was the contact person for the domain name database, and he didn't want to be anymore. STeve agreed to put in his name and work phone number, but asked for an answering machine to put onto it, since this would be the Official Phone. Jan motioned that we authorize up to $1.50 be spent by Steve Andre on an answering machine for Grex. After a bit of laughter, he fixed that amount to $50 (the amount that we had origionally decided was a fair amount). John seconded the motion, and all voted yes. Also the question of Inventory came up....namely, do we have a written inventory anywhere? The answer, of course, was no, so the members of the Technical Comittee agreed to meet afterwards and write down what they could remember was in the Pumpkin. Mark mentioned that we do need to keep track of this stuff, since we need to have a dollar amount at the beginning and ending of each year for some of our paperwork. It was pointed out that it would be hard to keep track of an inventory, since parts seem to magically appear in the Pumpkin with nobody's knowledge. STeve will post a list, and we need to keep a running inventory, as we may have to pay Personal Property Tax on it. We also need to fill out a Charitable Solicitations License 990, to accept the donations of parts that we've always had. We also have several computer parts laying around the Pumpkin that we have no use for, but are still good. STeve has asked if we can donate them to the Open BSD project. Board agreed, as long as it was local....no point in spending the money to ship them. Charle's phone rang....he took the call in the hallway. Next meeting will be on April 5, 2000, at 7 p.m. Meeting was adjurned at 8:12. 75 responses total. ---------- (159) #1 E R Bassey (other) Sat, Mar 11, 2000 (20:55). 2 lines. Misti said that as long as nobody else wants the position (for now, anyway) she will remain chair of the publicity committee. ---------- (159) #2 (still a) Wing Nut (hhsrat) Sat, Mar 11, 2000 (22:27). 3 lines. Before the answering machine is purchased, you might want to check with Keesan to see if Kiwanis has a working one that might be cheaper than going to a store. ---------- (159) #3 Megan Heberlein (eeyore) Sat, Mar 11, 2000 (22:33). 2 lines. It was kind of hard for me to post just the minutes, and not all of the extra information that I've recieved since the meeting...:) ---------- (159) #4 Sara Watson Arthurs (swa) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (00:23). 1 line. Such as? ---------- (159) #5 Pete Vassoff (pfv) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (00:53). 1 line. I liked "the minutes" - made for a good-read. ---------- (159) #6 Sara Watson Arthurs (swa) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (01:05). 1 line. I was, BTW, particularly delighted with the staff report. ;) ---------- (159) #7 Michelangelo Giansiracusa (spooked) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (01:35). 3 lines. Yep, I agree - it's just not fair I don't have the opportunity o attend staff meetings! We need a web cam on Arlo (: ---------- (159) #8 C. Keesan (keesan) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (11:35). 3 lines. We have at least 30 working answering machines at Kiwanis. With a lifetime guarantee - if it ever goes bad we replace it. Do you want digital, small tape, large tape, one tape or two? Who wants to choose one? ---------- (159) #9 Mary Remmers (mary) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (15:01). 13 lines. There was some small amount of discussion about getting a used one, through Kiwanis. There didn't seem to be any support for working with anything but a new and reliable machine. I know you won't agree with that, Sindi, but even buying a new inexpensive model didn't fly. STeve was told the decision is his and he has up to $50 to spend. I think that's a bit high, myself, but so it goes when you have $5,000 in the bank. I also think Board minutes should include discussions that involve/mention people who aren't at the meetings. That seems fair and right. ---------- (159) #10 C. Keesan (keesan) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (15:51). 2 lines. The new machines are made much more flimsily than the old ones. By the way, what sort of very important calls are you expecting on this machine? ---------- (159) #11 Marcus Watts (mdw) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (17:21). 1 line. The secret service. ---------- (159) #12 Steve Gibbard (scg) Sun, Mar 12, 2000 (17:59). 4 lines. And at one call every three or four months, it will probably take a long time to notice if the machine breaks. That means having an old one that can be replaced easily if it breaks isn't really a good option, when compared to something that will work reliably. ---------- (159) #13 C. Keesan (keesan) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (09:36). 35 lines. Are these calls worth $50?!!!!! Jim and I purchased used answering machines ten years ago from a friend who got different ones for his business. We got one for each of us, plus a third for a backup. We have never had to use the third one. They are both still working perfectly, though I did manage to break the belt on one by my own stupidity (I forced a tape in it, it was easy to replace the belt for $2). Of the answering machines coming into Kiwanis, it is very obvious if they are not working - they do not take messages, or the microphone does not record. The newer machines are built cheaper, to sell cheaper, with smaller motors that rewind more slowly and burn out, with cheaper mechanisms that stop working, and with very skinny belts. Or they are digital, and all sorts of screwy things go wrong with them that you would not obviously notice. People are starting to come in for the tape type to replace their unreliable digital ones. The more expensive newer machines have more features, not more reliability. More to go wrong. I am willing to test out a used answering machine for a week on my own line (which I use for 'important' business calls, which are worth at least $50 each to me) and then donate it to grex. In fact I can test two and give you a matched pair. This is not exactly consistent behavior for an organization operating on used computer equipment, and with 12 or so used modems which reliably hang up on people (to the point that two of the people we signed up told us they did not see the point in paying membership dues any longer). For the price of an unneeded answering machine, grex could replace one of its 14.4 modems with a 56k external modem on one of the phone lines (I think - is there some reason it could not?) which people could dial into specifically if they wanted to download a large file. Is the phone number listed with the DNS service used by anyone other than people trying to sell grex something? I am also willing to let grex use my phone number for such calls, and I already have an answering machine. (I would still be happy to give STeve a free answering machine for personal calls.) Jim is equally willing to let grex use his answering machine. Or I can stick an answering machine on the phone line at the house we are building, which gets almost no calls, and which we would check regularly for these very important messages. ---------- (159) #14 C. Keesan (keesan) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (10:47). 12 lines. Is the $5000 still in the bank?!!! If so, we are still losing $200/year in interest, which could be used to purchase 4-5 new modems/year. Today it took me four tries to dial in to grex. Kept getting no carrier. I finally had to dial 761-5041. I would not mind also getting phone calls on the answering machine at the building site from prospective grex users. Since we would be checking that answering machine regularly we would know that it was working. I call Jim there about once a day to tell him to come back for lunch, and I could leave a message on the machine and make sure the machine was working. The phone there is in use possibly half an hour a week. I don't know what else Steve was planning to use his phone line for, maybe personal calls? Is there some reason grex is not using faster modems? ---------- (159) #15 C. Keesan (keesan) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (12:42). 20 lines. After consulting with Ross, Jim has decided that we can offer to let grex use the Kiwanis electronics department phone number, which he can put an answering machine on and check regularly (three or more times a week when he is there) and also use to leave messages to himself and other volunteers. Someone tell us what sort of message you would like to see on it, if not 'Please leave a message on this machine for Cyberspace Communications (also known as grex) or the Kiwanis electronics department'. Since Jim leaves himself a lot of reminders, he would notice very soon if the machine did not work perfectly, and could replace it with a choice of 30 other ones. The problem with leaving messages at our building site is that often it takes us up to 10 rings to get to the phone from up a ladder, and we don't want to have to remember to turn the machine off when there and on when leaving. If you want to put the Kiwanis phone number as a contact number for prospective new users (for instance on the TV ad) we can also offer them very cheap computers or help signing up. We already get lots of calls at that number from people who forgot their passwords or can't figure out how to delete messages, so it could also be a general help number for Wed. evenings 6-10, for those people who don't even know how to send e-mail calls for help. ---------- (159) #16 Scott Helmke (scott) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (12:50). 3 lines. The_problem_with_casual_use_of_other_phones_and_<100_answering_machines_is__ that_the_Secret_Service_is_not_likely_to_be_calling_to_offer_us_$50_worth_of_ business.__They_will_have_serious_issues_to_discuss._________________________ ---------- (159) #17 Greg Fleming (flem) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (15:35). 7 lines. From what I understand, the kind of phone calls we expect to be getting on this phone line are from people, such as the Secret Service, who require particular technical services from Grex's staff, not from users looking to find out more about Grex. The staff members present at the board meeting suggested that STeve was the person most appropriate to provide those kinds of technical services, and he agreed to do so. That's why the phone number is STeve's. There doesn't seem to be any good reason to change that. ---------- (159) #18 C. Keesan (keesan) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (15:57). 18 lines. We would be happy to give Steve's phone number to anyone calling for him. There doesn't seem to me to be any good reason for throwing away $50 on a new answering machine when we have plenty of working used ones, and if you are afraid that a used machine will stop working if nobody calls it for three months, this is a number that will be getting calls anyway and the answering machine would be checked regularly. How often does the Secret Service call? Bank of Ann Arbor pays 4% interest on savings accounts, $100 minimum, and has free checking, $700 minimum, in case it is too much work or too inconvenient to use PAX at slightly higher interest. We could also give STeve's e-mail address out to anyone who called, in fact why does grex want the DNS people to have a phone number at all? I repeat my offer to provide an answering machine which I consider to be high quality (ATT makes very durable ones that are easy to use) and which I will test on my business line for a week first. In fact I can provide a matched pair of these. ---------- (159) #19 David Cahill (dpc) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:02). 1 line. The Board has made its decision, which I think was a good one. ---------- (159) #20 C. Keesan (keesan) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:25). 3 lines. Please explain why you think a new answering machine, most of which are built to sell cheaply, will work better than a better-built used one which I have tested for a week. ---------- (159) #21 Steve Gibbard (scg) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:45). 4 lines. Sindi, give it a rest, please. A new answering machine will be considered better if STeve says it is, because he is the one volunteering to deal with it, and he's the one who needs to deal with it if it breaks. We're not talking about a huge amount of money here. ---------- (159) #22 Megan Heberlein (eeyore) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (18:57). 8 lines. And also, please note the wording of "up to 50". We aren't against him paying less. :) But since he does know the inner workings of the system inside out and upside down, and he's willing to take the calls, it only seems fair to me to make it as easy access as possible for him. I also believe that with the seriousness of the phone calls that would be coming in on the line, every precaution is necessary, just to keep the government happy and out of our hair. ---------- (159) #23 Marcus Watts (mdw) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (20:47). 7 lines. I've got an older used answering machine at home. I gave up using it because it stopped being reliable - it was one of the casette tape ones, and I suspect the rubber bands finally gave out. A used unit is also much less likely to come with an instruction manual (I'm pretty sure I never got one with mine). Having said that, I have no real objection to a used one, but I would also prefer to leave this up to STeve who will have to live with the thing. ---------- (159) #24 David Brodbeck (gull) Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (21:43). 11 lines. Some of the new machines have the advantage of having no moving parts. Hmm...maybe someone should have the duty of calling the line biweekly, to make sure it still works? The new electronic machines are pretty reliable, but I've seen them quit after getting pegged by lightning. keesan, my understanding is that Grex's modems aren't the normal, off the shelf consumer items you usually see. Generally ISPs use rackmount modems. One of the big advantages is that this means all the modems are the same, and fully interchangable -- imagine having five different brands of modem, each needing a different initialization string! ---------- (159) #25 Joseph L Gelinas (gelinas) Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (01:31). 9 lines. Since others haven't made it clear to my satisfaction, I'm going to chime in. Sindi, the contact number is used by people investigating network abuse: unwanted mass mail, illegal intrusion, denial of service attacks, and such like. These are the kinds of things that can convince our ISP to cut us off, terminating our Internet access. The number is not generally used by salesmen (although I have gotten a few of them since my number was listed as the UM technical contact). ---------- (159) #26 E R Bassey (other) Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (01:33). 47 lines. keesan, I think your interest both in saving GREX an expenditure you don't think is necessary and in eliminating a seemingly unnecessary manufacture of another machine so we can purchase it is admirable, but in the particular circumstances, the board has chosen STeve, on the very sound basis of his technical expertise and experience dealing with exactly the kinds of issues that calls received on this machine would relate to, and has chosen to accept his judgement on what kind and nature of equipment he thinks should be put to this use. in order to register a domain name, there MUST be a real-world person who can be considered either the responsible party, or agent of the responsible party for technical problems originating from that domain. That is why there has to be a phone number, and especially a qualified staff person's phone number (like STeve) listed there. This is explicitly NOT a general information number for users or the general public. Because the kinds of calls we have received and expect to receive at this number engender issues which must sometimes be handled with discretion and expediency, it also makes sense to have the number be a direct number to the person who would be able to best respond. STeve volunteered his number because most of his business contact is via email and the phone is not often in use, and because he is there enough to make it a good place have a machine where it would be noticed if a call came in. There is, I think, a legitimate concern that buying older, used equipment and placing it in a use which demands not constant but occasional and consistently reliable functioning would not be the most prudent approach. Even with a week's testing, a used machine still represents an unknown quantity to a greater extent than a new one. A factory warrantee is another factor, and we did discuss going to Kiwanis for a backup machine in the event one was needed -- a plan which I think suits well for short-term backup. The thrust of the point is that a machine Kiwanis can suppy may well be more reliable than what we can buy new, but we cannot know that, and the balancing of the peace of mind of buying a new machine with the small burden of the cost we agreed to bear resulted in the decision being what it is. It is in no way, explicit or implied, any commentary on the quality of the work done by the Kiwanis electronics department or the products therefrom, but rather a tacit acknowledgment of the collective experience of the reliability of new versus used equipment. Finally, this is a small matter, of which we are making a large issue. The board, in discussing our options in this matter, was aware that you would have concerns with our decision and hoped that you would trust our judgement. I hope that the explanations I have offered can ease your mind somewhat, and I also hope you know that we do appreciate the support and service you provide all of us by your enthusiastic sharing of GREX. ---------- (159) #27 E R Bassey (other) Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (01:34). 1 line. (Joe slipped in with #25) ---------- (159) #28 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (13:17). 8 lines. Is Grex consulting for the Secret Service as an organization or just Steve as a private individual? If Grex is consulting as organization this is NOT OK with me. At the very least I think it should be announced in Agora if we are consulting as an organization and opened up to member discussion. Who next the NSA, the FBI, the CIA? . To me this a very serious issue in a time when civil liberties are shrinking in this country and around the world. ---------- (159) #29 Steve Gibbard (scg) Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (13:46). 29 lines. The Secret Service was just mentioned as an example. Occasionally, Grex users use Grex to do things that are illegal. Once or twice, that has included e-mailing death threats to president@whitehouse.gov. The Secret Service takes that sort of thing very seriously, as they should. More often such calls come in from operators of other systems that are being attacked from Grex, wanting us to make it stop *now*, or occasionally some other law enforcement agency. Generally, in the case of the law enforcement agencies, they have some sort of attack against another system, coming from Grex, and they want to track down the person doing it. Generally, once we tell them that we're a public access system, and not somebody's private network, they just want the information on where the person connected from and when, so they can go to the site the person connected to Grex from and ask them questions. Most of that information is stuff that's publicly visible to any Grex user who knows where to look. The contact number that's been listed for the last few years is my home number. In that time, I think I've taken about three law enforcement calls, from three different agencies (two Federal, one local). They've all had very legitimate complaints, and when we've looked at what the users were doing on Grex, it's generally been stuff that we don't want them doing here either. So, why does Grex cooperate with law enforcement when they come asking questions? It's to our advantage for law enforcement agencies to deal with computer crime, which gives us some small degree of protection from vandal attacks. Likewise, if other sites are being damaged by vandals, helping get the vandals caught is the right thing to do. Anyhow, if we weren't helpful, and refused to cooperate, the law enforcement agencies could show up with a warrant, take Grex away, and get the information themselves. ---------- (159) #30 C. Keesan (keesan) Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (15:03). 26 lines. The digital answering machines are more likely to affected by things like power outages (batteries eventually go dead) or lightning strikes, as they have more electronics in them. Kiwanis has three answering machines that were donated in the box and appear to be new, which I would be happy to donate to grex or sell to grex for up to $50 after testing them for a week. Thank you all for your well thought out input. Is there any issue that grexers are not willing to talk to death? Flem emailed me that he thought there was supposed to be more discussion of transferring grex's $5000, currently in a bank run, in my opinion, by incompetents (see agora short question on GLB/TCF refusing to close out my account and lying about it), which I do not want to have free use of my money. What is the status of transferring the $5000, or most of it, to PAX, as agreed to by everyone after lengthy debate over a year ago? Last I checked, a while back, Pax paid 4.38%. Bank of Ann Arbor is paying 4% on savings accounts of $100 minimum. They are open Sat morning, and Th and Fr to 6 pm. If you also want to switch the checking account I would be happy to pay for new checks, like I did when I switched my own account there. It is possible to look inside an answering machine and determine if the belts are stretched out, as they feel loose if they are. Sometimes they get old and slippery. Our machines in the box are recently made but I can check on the shape of the belts as well as making sure they answer the phone. THe newer machines are made with much skinnier belts and these belts will stretch out faster than the older ones do. What usually wears out first is the tape. Doesn't the secret service believe in e-mail? ---------- (159) #31 C. Keesan (keesan) Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (15:31). 14 lines. Jim said we have a fourth answering machine in the box, just donated by a Kiwanis member whose mother used it once (not for Sunday drives) and did not like it because of the synthesized digital voice. It works fine. It is new. It cost $60. Jim is authorized to donate any of our equipment directly to another nonprofit in exchange for a thank-you letter from a board member. We would appreciate whoever is going to buy an answering machine at least looking at our selection first before buying. Jim priced this machine at $30 and would like a thank you for this amount. You could also include in the thank you a filing cabinet and copy machine that Kiwanis donated to grex. Grexers have donated equipment and advice worth far more to Kiwanis. Our other three machines in boxes were probably Christmas presents to people from friends who thought they needed answering machines because they did not already have them. People intentionally do not have them. ---------- (159) #32 Jan Wolter (janc) Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (23:08). 5 lines. Cindi, some of those machines sound good to me. It's true that some of the new machines really stink, as do some of the old ones. The board delegated STeve to get a good reliable machine. It's pretty much up to him to decide if the ones you have will do. I don't think he is reading this conference. ---------- (159) #33 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (02:15). 4 lines. I don't have a problem with cooperation to stop computer cracking. However if staff is ever aproached to hand over a Grex users say private e-mail based on the users political point of view I would like to be informed of that, and would consider it a breach of trust not to be informed. ---------- (159) #34 Joseph L Gelinas (gelinas) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (02:38). 3 lines. If grex ever passes over any such thing absent a search warrant, we got big problems, yeah. Fortunately, it still takes more than "I don't like hir politics" to get a search warrant, most days. ---------- (159) #35 John H. Remmers (remmers) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (10:27). 7 lines. If STeve's not currently reading this conference, I hope he drops into it again soon, since he's a board member and Coop is the forum where users air their views on policy matters. That said, I second the suggestion that Sindi speak directly with STeve about any recommendations concerning an answering machine. As Jan points out, the board delegated the decision to him. ---------- (159) #36 C. Keesan (keesan) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (11:39). 4 lines. I e-mailed STeve about the answering machines. Our other answering machines (not in the box, some of which I removed from the boxes they were donated in to save space) also come with instructions, they are usually printed on the bottom of hte little door, except for remote access instructions. ---------- (159) #37 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (15:24). 5 lines. I don't care if there is a search warrent or if it's done for "national security" reasons or whatever I want to know if any of my private information is being given to the goverment. If I can't be given that promise then I will find it difficult to post anythin other than "don't worry be happy" on the conferences or e-mail. ---------- (159) #38 Steve Gibbard (scg) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (15:48). 11 lines. I've never seen a search warrant, but presumably either the warrant or the laws surrounding the issuance of the warrant would specify whether the person whose mailbox the hypothetical search warrant would apply to should be notified. I think the proper actions of the Grex staff, should some law enforcement agency show up with a valid search warrant, would be to assume that the courts are in a much better position to make decisions about that sort of thing than we are. Likewise, that assumption should hold if somebody shows up without a warrant or subpoena, wanting more information than we can comfortably or legally give them (in other words, telling them to go get a warrant). ---------- (159) #39 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (19:13). 3 lines. I disagree it seems to me it's up to the members whether they want to cooperate with U.S. government spooks. As a user can I call a member vote on this issue? ---------- (159) #40 Megan Heberlein (eeyore) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (19:28). 29 lines. The reality is that we live in the USA, and as such, we do have a certian obligation to co-opperate with the Government. *NOW*...Before I get flamed out of proportioned, let me explain just what that means. (Well, to me, at least) This doesn't mean that I think that we ought to just hand any government official anything they want. Quite frankly, without a warrent, they get nothing, as far as I'm concerned. If they have a warrent, it really doesn't matter what I think, they get to have the info anyway. No members of GREX staff or board are going to be handing out information on members, users, or their accounts without a really stinking good cause. Sorry, but sending death threats to "president@whitehouse.gov" counts as one of those stinking good causes, even if I do have no use for the current president. The staff and board of Grex are bound and determined to keep the governmental nose out of the internet and Grex itself. BUT if somebody is using Grex to do illeagal things, we are not going to tell the government "No we won't help you to stop the illeagal doings (even though we don't want them happening on our system) just because you are the US Government." There is nobody here (That I'm aware of) that would *EVER* think of offering information on ANYBODY on this system to any governmental agencey. Thanks, but we do really want to keep them out of our business, in every way possible. And quite frankly, by not complying with them when they need the information on illeagal doings, I believe we can be shut down. (I apologize for making it seem like I'm speaking for the whole of the staff and board....I'm not, just my opinion. Sorry it came out that way) ---------- (159) #41 Pete Vassoff (pfv) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (20:11). 4 lines. yeah.. In Search Of... "a decent ISP", you can learn all SORTSA' dumb, and weird things.. With luck, we'll all have to buy a permit to get a modem to get a license to get an isp, the way things are going. ---------- (159) #42 David Brodbeck (gull) Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (21:50). 3 lines. If they have a search warrent, it doesn't matter if you refuse to give them the data. Either you give it to them, or they confiscate the machine and find it themselves. I hear the FBI has some pretty good data recovery labs. ---------- (159) #43 E R Bassey (other) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (03:20). 25 lines. I think that even the most hardcore anti-government Grexer would have to face the reality that there is not likely to be any publicly accessible system with greater security from intrusion into users' privacy than Grex. This is a system run by people who generally seem to be pragmatic idealists, if you can handle the concept. We are a group of individuals who respect both individualism and the benefits of the rule of law to a civilized society. Therefore, any decisions we make in dealing with government representatives will be decisions which serve the interests of the Grex community (consisting of its users) and the larger community, in whatever ways best conform to our respective and collective ideals. I think you'd be silly to be concerned about your privacy here any more than anyplace else. The key thing to keep in mind is that very little of what you say and do on or through Grex is actually private or inaccessible. Your email to other machines outside of Grex may pass through and be read by the admins of a hundred other machines. Be realistic, be educated about the extent of the privacy you really have, and be comfortable in the knowledge that whatever privacy you actually do have will not be compromised other than by a comprehensively inspected due process of law, and that though we will not put up roadblocks to that due process, we will do our darnedest to insure that any such disclosures are fully proper and made with full accountability. My $.02. ---------- (159) #44 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (04:52). 21 lines. Yes but there is a principle here. Why should we always cooperate with a government that kept extensive files on such people as Pablo Picasso, Charlie Chaplin and Albert Einstein?: See http://foia.fbi.gov/alpha.htm Ofcourse if someone is planning violence then they should be stopped and the government may be the best place to turn, however, it seems that we should reserve the right to turn information on our users over to the government on a case by case basis as dictated by our ethics which may or may not transcend the laws of this country. People often wonder how fascism happened, it happened because "good Germans" decided not to question the laws of Germany. Are we just "good Germans" here? If so I will be disapointed I think of Grex as something more evolved and ethical than just an originization that follows state orders. I think was shown by our opposition to the CDA. Hopefully this is all just academic. But I still want to state my formal opposition to just turning personal data from Grex users over to the government unless proof is given that the user is going to act in a violent fashion towards other people or they are going to cause extensive damage to someones property. fashion towards other people. ---------- (159) #45 Mary Remmers (mary) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (08:12). 7 lines. "Unless proof is given..." Gawd, you are naive. Enthusiastic, but naive. When you start thinking of anything about Grex as private you are making a mistake. Start from there. If it's something you don't want anyone to know anything about don't bring it online. ---------- (159) #46 C. Keesan (keesan) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (09:41). 1 line. STeve will be by Saturday to look at Kiwanis' newer answering machines. ---------- (159) #47 Steve Gibbard (scg) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (13:59). 10 lines. Grex's oposition to Michigan's version of the CDA was done through the legal process. We filed a lawsuit, and we've won the first round. Likewise, insisting on a warrant is relying on the legal system to keep the government in check. And, while I'm not a lawyer, I'm assuming that law enforcement with a warrant likely isn't going to be all that interested in explaining all the reasons they're looking for something on command, nor would I assume they're under any obligation to. Anyhow, this whole thread is getting blown way way way out of proportion. ---------- (159) #48 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (14:59). 5 lines. So everyone thinks it's just OK that the government can come in and read your private e-mail? Sad. There are options you could alert the user and give them the option to delete their e-mail. Why cooperate with this government? going on, ask anyone in Earth First who have never harmed a single person yet they are under constant FBI scrutiny ---------- (159) #49 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (15:03). 2 lines. Sigh my terminal emulation is messed up that should be "Yes this is still going on..." ---------- (159) #50 Sarah Zamenski (gypsi) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (15:56). 1 line. ---------- (159) #51 Steve Gibbard (scg) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (18:35). 29 lines. I have relatives who were involved in the Civil Rights movement, and had their apartment searched as a result of that in the 1940s or 50s. That sort of action for reasons that are entirely political is certainly not ok, and the people who have to go through it understandably don't like it one bit. Still, my impression is that people who have put themselves into that type of role understand that that sort of harrassment goes with the teritory, understand what actions tehy could take to stop it, and have made a conscious decision that working for their broader goal is well worth dealing with the harrassment they have to endure because of it. Grex's board, staff, and users have made no decision that whatever goals our users may consider worth pursuing that are opposed by the government are worth fighting for, nor have any people using Grex for such purposes asked the board, staff, and users whether they want to join them in such an endeavor. As such, no reasonable activist would expect Grex to provide them that level of support. That said, the US Constitution has established the court system and various legal safeguards involving the court system, to protect people from that sort of abuse without good cause. The judgement of the courts isn't always perfect, but neither is the judgement of Grex's board, staff, or users. The courts operate with a great deal more public oversight than the Grex staff does, and the courts are trusted by American society, and authorized by the US Constitution, to make such decisions. Barring extremely extenuating circumstances, the courts are where those decisions belong. All this is, of course, completely irrellevant, because even if we didn't feel that way, I very much doubt that anybody on the Grex staff is prepared to get into an armed standoff with the Ann Arbor Police, the FBI, the US Secret Service, or any other such agency, both because we're not that delusional, and because such agencies always win such standoffs in the end. ---------- (159) #52 Marcus Watts (mdw) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (19:15). 68 lines. It's certainly true the FBI could come busting in with 20 cars bristling with submachine guns, seize the grex hardware, and zoom away. If this happens, grex staff will not lay their lives down to defend the data. No way. Ain't gonna happen. Fortunately, this is also extremely unlikely. There *were* a few incidents in the 80's & early 90's where the FBI went berzerk and did stuff like that. It didn't last long, and there are some very good reasons for this. The first thing was that there were a significant # of lawsuits by people who had pretty good reason to be pissed off about having their hardware seized, like having their business go broke as a result. The second thing is that it's not actually a particularly efficient way catch people who can actually be convicted of horrible scary crimes in court. Swooping down and seizing all the hardware is a very expensive way to acquire a very precise snapshot, of a moment in time you can't control, and which may very likely contain *nothing* of criminal interest. It can also only be done once - after that, the target is warned, and is not likely to hang around for a repeat experience. People in law enforcement do not like uncertainty. It's embarassing to go into the boss's office and explain that you just wasted one man year of time & effort to acquire information that would only be of value to sociologists 100 years from now. The third problem is, ok, you've swooped down, you have all the equipment, now what do you do? This means you, the FBI, have to have people who can copy SCSI disks, assemble and boot sun hardware, understand SunOS, can read through log files and sort out custom software patches, and generally discover, understand, and piece together data related to 20,000 users. This is expensive expertise. Sure, there's a chance the FBI has people like that, and certainly, if they don't have the people, they can hire consultants or contract hard jobs out to the NSA. But that all costs money, and even more importantly, they only have a limited amount of such expertise, and much more work to do than expertise. This all means they're spread very thin, and literally cannot *afford* to go on fishing expeditions. This isn't the way the FBI works today. Chances are much greater that they'll send *one* agent out to talk to grex staff. He'll actually probably try to do his job via telephone simply to save time. He won't rely on intimidation at all; instead, he's going to be extremely friendly and looking (and hoping) that we can and will help him. Chances are we (grex staff) will be just as interested in helping him - if it's a computer vandal, and we find evidence he's been breaking into other systems on grex, we'd be delighted to turn that evidence over to the FBI. We really don't want vandals to think of grex as a convenient storage site for stashing stolen data. EPCA, which describes the legal protections e-mail & computer files have, also specifically allows to turn such things over to law enforcement, if we run across them and so choose. Note, "if we choose" - it doesn't *require* we do so, so we have some leeway to make judgement calls there. We do tell people up front that "grex is not for illegal uses"; so I don't think any of this should be much of a surprise for anyone on the system. If all we found on grex were love letters, then I don't think we'd hesitate to tell the FBI agent that's what we found, and that we don't think that's something we can or should turn over to him. At that point, he certainly has the option to seek a search warrant, but I think it's rather more likely he'll agree it's not worth his time, and that will be the end of the matter. Now, even within the grex staff, there is some room for individual variation. We have our varying opinions regarding the FBI, privacy, and what's illegal. This probably won't make much practical difference however; among other things, the vandal community has now given everyone on grex staff sufficient hands-on experience with the gory details that we all know what we're willing to do and not to do. Gosh, just this morning, I got a mail threat to "crash grex within 2 hours". I assume it didn't happen since the mail was dated 7am and my login session from feb 20 was still alive this evening. ---------- (159) #53 Sarah Zamenski (gypsi) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (20:30). 9 lines. Marcus never ceases to impress me. =) This all feels like a mountain made from a molehill, Raven. Big Brother isn't going to come swooping down with its eagle talons on a college-town BBS. If some information is requested because a user is suspected of something, then why should we warn that user that they may want to delete their email? If they haven't done anything illegal, why worry about what is in their inbox?. Okay, so letters are private, but I'd much rather have them read my bawdy love letters to Christian Slater than throw me in jail for obstruction of justice. ---------- (159) #54 Mary Remmers (mary) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (22:12). 12 lines. Marcus also has a bit more confidence in the FBI and Secret Service than I do. It was just a few years ago that they came to our house, talked to our neighbors, found me at work and with security guards in tow pulled me away from my patients, made threatening comments, and confiscated very personal medical records, all because they couldn't read a mail header. This was mail that had sent by someone on the west coast threatening the President. It had been routed through Grex. The only reason they even had our name was because our phone number was listed as the Grex contact. But I agree raven is asking far too much of Grex. From time to time we really should remind folks that this is not the place for sensitive content. ---------- (159) #55 Sarah Zamenski (gypsi) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (23:30). 1 line. Oh wow, Mary...how awful. =( ---------- (159) #56 Marcus Watts (mdw) Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (23:32). 57 lines. Oh, I don't necessarily have a *lot* of confidence in the FBI, law enforcement, or the government in general. I wish that I could, but I've seen the government do some pretty bone-headed things. I do have *some* confidence that they'll at least be fairly predictable in what they do and how they go about it. Here at work, I had the occasional chance to see FBI agents, as they would occasionally visit the ITD user advocates down the hall while computer security incidents at the U would get sorted out. I also try to pay attention whenever I hear mention of issues related to the government, law enforcement, and computer security issues. The incident that Mary describes, while not that long ago chronologically, was in some ways a "forever" ago -- when that incident happened, e-mail was still a pretty exotic concept, and most people hadn't heard of the www. The secret service hires very bright people who have absolutely no imagination. The reasons why are obvious, but the consequence is that they don't necessarily grasp all of the implications of e-mail right away. It's not that they don't want to, it just doesn't occur to them. In the end, I think that whole incident was very educational for them, but it did take them a repeat experience before they found out that not only is it important to ask to see the log records, it's important to ask *right away* before they go away. By the time they had flown an agent out to visit grex, several weeks had elapsed, and while grex still had records, they pointed to another system that *didn't* have records any more. To be charitable, we learned as well. We installed newer mail software between the first & second incidents, which would have allowed the secret service to zero in directly on the system that ended up purging their records, without ever bothering us at all. I'm sure the secret service, today, has people who can do all this, and probably deal with it on a daily basis. They've probably gotten very good by now at tracking people down. Since they don't have a lot of imagination, they probably weren't even too offended at being compared to a certain aquantic species in a memorable comment by another grex staffer. Something else to consider is, if the FBI (or anyone else) were to seize computer records, in order to admit them into a court of law, they *ALSO* need to have expert testimony in order to testify as to what the material actually is, that it wasn't and can't have been forged, and that it relates to the persons and matters actually in question. This is not as trivial as it seems, and seizing the computer records themselves isn't sufficient to do this. What that generally means is that law enforcement will *want* and *need* cooperative staff to testify on whatever material they have. That all means they *really* don't want to piss off any potential expert witnesses they might need for their court case down the road. So, it's possible, and in the long run even probable that we'll have occasional dealings with law enforcement. Most of them will probably be via telephone. It's possible we'll turn information over to them. Most probably that information will only be publically available information anyone could get on grex. Conceivably that could be private information, if grex staff find sufficient evidence of bad stuff happening on grex. There is a small chance of us having to respond to a search warrant. If a search warrant were executed, there is a very small chance we might be able to influence the wording to exclude material that isn't relevant (like everyone else's files). ---------- (159) #57 Jan Wolter (janc) Fri, Mar 17, 2000 (00:20). 8 lines. See http://www.grex.org/staffnote/privacy.html This is a "Grex Staff Notes" document that I wrote about three years ago summarizing our privacy policy. It is meant both to inform users of what staff does privacy-wise, and to help keep all staff on the same basic wavelength. It hasn't been updated for a while, but I think it still does a pretty good job of describing what we do on privacy issues, and it's probably a good thing for anyone on Grex with privacy concerns to investigate. ---------- (159) #58 Joseph L Gelinas (gelinas) Fri, Mar 17, 2000 (00:30). 1 line. Interesting reading. Thanks for pointing it out, Jan. ---------- (159) #59 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Fri, Mar 17, 2000 (17:13). 1 line. Yes interesting reading indeed I know Grex staff has high standards I just wish that there wasn't a policy w of always cooperating with the govt. ---------- (159) #60 Dave Lovelace (davel) Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (10:07). 17 lines. I don't think there's exactly a policy of "always cooperating with the government", as such. In fact, the most relevant paragraph is: > If Grex's staff is contacted by law enforcement officials they > will cooperate with any legal search for information on Grex. > Grex staff will freely give out any public information that is > already available to any Grex user (including records of when > people logged in and from where they did so) and will assist in > the understanding and interpretation of such information. > Private information, such as the contents of a user's personal > files and mail, would be made available only if a valid search > warrant were provided. Personally, I can't *imagine* a reason for not providing information available to any user. And it's a **long** way from "would be made available only if a valid search warrant were provided" to "always cooperate with the govenment". Why are you trying to claim that they're the same thing? ---------- (159) #61 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (14:44). 6 lines. I guess i was using that as short hand for cooperate when a search warrant is provided. At this point it's academic as I can see staff is open to no other options. It's just sad to me that Grex would cooperate with the same orgazization that harrases people like Martin Luther King and John Lennon simply for the political views they held even though such people never harmed anyone and in fact dedicated their lives to stoping violence. ---------- (159) #62 Pete Vassoff (pfv) Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (14:57). 1 line. "Tanj". ---------- (159) #63 Jan Wolter (janc) Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (17:12). 4 lines. Are you expecting us to write a policy that says "Grex staff will go to jail rather than comply with a search warrant?" If you were writing the policy, what would it say? ---------- (159) #64 David Cahill (dpc) Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (18:31). 9 lines. I'm impressed with the present policy and the conscientiousness with which Grex board/staff/etc. have dealt with such issues in the past. Since involvement with law enforcement is rare, this discussion is largely hypothetical. One advantage we have is that Grex successfully sued to stop implementation of Michigan's "Little Communications Decency Act" last year. Law enforcement folks will think twice before doing anything "funny" to us. ---------- (159) #65 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (21:13). 6 lines. Yes and Grex's opposition to Michigan's law was courages and to be comended. I'm just making a philolosophical point (with practical implications) that extends that same stance to say if all laws aren't ethcial why should we take part in enofrcing them. I don't expect policy to change at this point but I do want my point of view to be known to staff, which it no doubt is now. :-) ---------- (159) #66 David Brodbeck (gull) Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (21:45). 1 line. raven, would you go to jail over some data on a free BBS? ---------- (159) #67 Pete Vassoff (pfv) Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (22:54). 11 lines. It's stupid to even consider such a course - and grex wouldn't. You want security? Run the shit from the home-box.. pgp and whatnot: grex itself is an "intermediary".. In fact, all yer shit passes around in packets for every node to snoop. And, I assure you.. the NSA is more than capable of snoopin'. "security" is a good firearms locker and a computer that isn't linked to anything beyond the walls in yer home - shit, any electronics engineer can tell you the very phones and tvs in yer home can and HAVE acted as microphones. ---------- (159) #68 E R Bassey (other) Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (19:45). 8 lines. Matthew, I think the point here is that many of us share your basic sentiments about this, but the difference is that the policies and the decisions made are based on a rational assessment of the situation and not the emotional reaction to the facts you provide about past (or even present) abuses by certain government agencies, even in collusion. The responsibility of the staff is to GREX, and the most basic point is that staff will do whatever is in the best interests of GREX, with the possible exception of certain highly improbable scenarios we can all imagine. ---------- (159) #69 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Tue, Mar 21, 2000 (13:53). 2 lines. Yes it takes courage to stand up to the spooks. I suppose that's why the Soviet Union lasted so long, fear. ---------- (159) #70 Pete Vassoff (pfv) Tue, Mar 21, 2000 (14:33). 5 lines. You want to "stand up to the spooks"? Great.. Vote down everything outta' a lobby or politician that even remotely rewrites the BORe and constitution... yer too damned late for a lot of it. ---------- (159) #71 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Tue, Mar 21, 2000 (17:39). 5 lines. re #70 Yeah i know it, part of the reason I live out in the woods in Oregon. BTW to staff I know nothings going to change and I even appreciate WHY that is, it's just sad to me that this the case. The U.S. needs more dissidents. ---------- (159) #72 Marcus Watts (mdw) Tue, Mar 21, 2000 (20:41). 8 lines. I don't think "dissidents" is the right answer. More people willing to get involved and fix things, perhaps. It's inevitable the gov't is going to make mistakes occasionally. The trick is to get them to recognize when they've made mistakes, and to do differently and hopefully better next time. Moving out to Oregon, or buying a submachine gun, will not accomplish this--it could even convince the gov't they were justified all along in acting as if everyone were armed loners. ---------- (159) #73 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Wed, Mar 22, 2000 (15:31). 2 lines. Hey I'm a loner but not armed (I support the right to arm myself in the future) get it right. ---------- (159) #74 Matthew Stephen Rogers (raven) Wed, Mar 22, 2000 (15:33). 3 lines. BTW dissidents who defied the state are those who brought us civil rights and who brought down the Soviet Union. OK I'll be quiet you can resume talking about uh what was it board meeting minutes... ---------- (159) #75 David Brodbeck (gull) Thu, Mar 23, 2000 (22:46). 2 lines. Yes, but you'll find that a lot of progress was made by dissidants who worked *inside* the system.